Is God’s Presence in Hell?

 

Doctrine

The question of whether God is in hell must begin doctrine that God is everywhere.  He is omnipresent. The doctrine of God’s omnipresence states that God is everywhere, at once and absolutely.  There are no parts of Him in one place and part in another.  One must also hold to the doctrine of Divine Simplicity This is the idea that God does not exist in parts but is one unified entity.  

Revelation 14:10

Jesus taught that God’s ultimate punishment is banishment from the Lord's presence (see Matthew 7:23; 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; and Luke 13:27).  However, as we read Revelation 14:10 (ESV), speaking of those who worship the beast: “he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”  That passage tends to reveal that Christ and the angels are present in Hell with the damned.  Dr. Beale writes, “That the torment takes place not only ‘before the Lamb’ but also the before ‘holy angels’ suggests that the angels are not merely present when the judgment occurs but also take part in the execution of it, though their presence may only be intended to call attention to the Lamb.”^[1] The presence of Christ isn’t stated categorically that He is in Hell.  It may be saying that Christ and the angels are observing the very results of their judgment. “In Revelation 14:10, "presence" is a literal translation of the Greek ἐνώπιον, which means "in the presence of, before." This is a spatial word, suggesting proximity and literal, measurable distances.”[2]

2 Thessalonians 1:9

2 Thessalonians 1:9 gives us the clearest of answers.  “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,” (2 Thessalonians 1:9, ESV). Let me unpack this by identifying several important points.

Point 1.

The clause, “away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” leans back to Isaiah 2:10, 19, and 21, where the wicked are called to hide from the “presence of the fear of the Lord and from the glory of His might.^[3]  This should cause us to immediately think that the presence of God they are experiencing is His wrath and is manifested by His terror and majestic power.  The redeemed of the Lord do not experience this aspect of God’s presence. “. . . In your presence there is fullness of joy; at your right hand are pleasures forevermore.” (Psalm 16:11b, ESV)

Point 2.

Another point to be made about this phrase, “away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” is that this is synonymous parallelism in Greek, meaning that the “presence of the Lord is stated otherwise and similar to, “the glory of His might.” “Since these two prepositional phrases are in synonymous parallelism with each other (see also vv8b and 10), it would be wrong to distinguish their meaning too sharply.”^[4]  All that is to say that the punishment meted out on the unrepentant is state away from the presence of God; or stated otherwise, away from the glory of His might. These phrases could be used interchangeably.  I’ll write more of that later.

Point 3.

The most compelling point for me is the word “presence”.  This word in the Greek text is “πρόσωπον prosōpon; from 4314 and ὤψ ōps (an eye, face); the face.”^[5] That Biblical notion of being before, or seeking God’s face is an important reality in the Scriptures. The greatest blessing is to have God’s face turned to you, not away from you. This leads me to conclude that God’s presence in Hell is His face is turned away.  He is present with an ever-turned face.  Many years ago, I head the late Dr. R.C. Sproul, Senior, speak on the topic of cursing and blessing[6].  He took his text from the Aaronic blessing of Numbers 6.

“The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.” (Numbers 6:24–26, ESV)

Dr. Sproul noted that cursing someone is the opposite of blessing.  For example, we could read the text as a curse in this way: “The LORD curse you and abandon you; the LORD turn His face and leave you in darkness removing all grace to you; the LORD remove His countenance[7] from you and give you calamity.” 

So, in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 we might see the Apostle saying that the reprobate experience the turned away face of God. That experience includes eternal darkness, devoid of all grace and peace, lacking all approval or acceptability from God.  “And God, who is present everywhere at all times, will be forever present in hell as the judge . . . Whatever the exact nature of this everlasting judgment, it is horrible ultimately for one reason only: God is present.” – Michael Horton[8]  For God to be present with His face turned away would be horror devoid description.  It is what Christ experienced on the Cross in a moment of time but infinite in measure when He cried, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”^[9]  The ever-present God was there with face turned away.  That is Hell.

As to the parallel phrase “the glory of His might”, how does it reflect a synonymous idea?   If we turn to Psalm 106:8 (ESV) we get a clue.  There we read, “Yet he saved them for his name’s sake, that he might make known his mighty power.” The salvation of God’s people is accomplished through His “mighty power”, His “glorious might”.  Just as God’s “turned-away-face” reflects His curse, so does His removal of His mighty power in salvation becomes His curse.   

Conclusion

One commentator puts it this way, “According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, the punishment of unbelievers in hell will consist not only of suffering in the "fires," but also banishment from the presence of the Lord. The word translated "presence" is literally "face." Whereas believers will see the Lord face to face (1 Corinthians 13:12), unbelievers will be driven from the face of the Lord and will never know the joy of being in His presence and the delight of observing the splendor of His power.”[10]

Is God present in Hell?  Yes.  God is present with face turned away and the possibility of salvation removed – forever.  This is unimaginable horror.

 

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^[1] Beale, G. K. (1999). The book of Revelation: a commentary on the Greek text (p. 760). W.B. Eerdmans; Paternoster Press.

[2] https://www.gotquestions.org/God-in-hell.html

^[3] Weima, J. A. D. (2014). Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament: 1–2 Thessalonians (R. W. Yarbrough & R. H. Stein, Eds.; p. 474). Baker Academic.

^[4] Weima, J. A. D. (2014). Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament: 1–2 Thessalonians (R. W. Yarbrough & R. H. Stein, Eds.; p. 475). Baker Academic.

^[5] Thomas, R. L. (1998). In New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : updated edition. Foundation Publications, Inc.

[6] https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/cross-of-christ/blessing-or-curse

[7] Remove His acceptance of you.

[8] https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/hell-not-separation-god/

^[9] The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Mt 27:46). (2016). Crossway Bibles.

[10] https://www.bibleref.com/2-Thessalonians/1/2-Thessalonians-1-9.html

John Stott - The Place of Israel

 

The Place of Israel

by John Stott [1]

Rector Emeritus,  All Souls Church, London, England

Our topic has been announced as “The Place of Israel,” and the topic that has been set for us is an object lesson in biblical hermeneutics as it’s usually called in the principles of interpreting the Bible.  But I would like to remind you right at the beginning that there are at least four ways in which the word “Israel,” whose place we are to investigate, can be used.

One:     Israel was that devious scoundrel, the second son of Isaac, whose first name was Jacob – meaning “he who deceived or he who struggles,” who amply lived up to his name – but whom God renames “Israel,” because having struggled with men all his life, he at last came to struggle with God for the blessing he needed (a blessing to which he was not entitled).

Two:     Israel is the chosen people of the Old Testament days – the 12 tribes descended from the 12 sons of Jacob called the children of Israel, because Israel (or Jacob) was a common ancestor.

Three:   Israel is the messianic community – the people of Jesus – the true descendents of Abraham because they share Abraham’s faith.  This includes Gentiles like most of us if we believe in Jesus, but excludes Jews who don’t.  When Paul ended his letter to the Galatians, “Peace and mercy upon the Israel of God,” he was referring to believers in Jesus, whatever their ethnic origin.  So Israel is the messianic community.

Four:    Israel today, for many people if you read the newspapers, is the Israeli nation, promised a national home by the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and given it in 1948.

So Israel has four meaning.  It means Jacob.  It means Jews.  It means Christians.  And it means Israelis.  And that is just the problem when you are asked who you are talking about.

To read further click HERE.

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1. John Stott was ordained into the ministry of the Church of England in 1945. He served as the senior pastor (rector) of All Souls Church in London from 1950-1975. He became Rector Emeritus in 1975 and devoted his life to a ministry of teaching worldwide, and writing.  Stott has written over 40 books. His best known, “Basic Christianity”, has been translated into more than 50 languages. Other titles include “The Cross of Christ,” The Contemporary Christian,”  “ Evangelical Truth,” “New Issues Facing Christians Today,” and eight New Testament expositions.

BEHOLD THE DAYS ARE COMING

 

The prophecy of Jeremiah, written about 600 years B.C., is foretelling the eventual judgment of southern Israel, Judah.  The Northern tribes had already been sent into captivity.  Babylon's assault was pending.

Throughout the prophecy, Jeremiah includes phrases of hope -- hope of a restoration.  But none is as clear as is recorded in Jeremiah 23:5–6 (ESV)

⁵ “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. ⁶ In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’

There are some expositors that choose to leave the time of the prophecy's fulfillment as open. "The expression days are coming is very general and has no particular time reference." [1] There are others who are adamant that this prophecy will be fulfilled in a physical, temporal Millennial reign. For example: This is referring to "Israel’s regathering and the righteous Branch will occur during the millennial reign following the Great Tribulation." [2]

I believe "the days" refer to the time between Christ's advent and His Second Coming. I also believe that the time stamp is clear.  I hold to that belief for 3 reasons:

#1. The formula "Behold the days".

In this chapter, Jeremiah uses that phrase twice (v5 and v7).  He will use it again in the well-known chapter on the New Covenant. ““Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32, ESV)

The writer to the Hebrews in chapters 8:8bff and 10:15 clearly applies that formula to the Christian Church. In classic Biblical hermeneutics, we interpret the Old by the New.  The author to the book of Hebrews would view Jeremiah's prophecy as applying to the Church, the true offspring of Abraham, all those who have faith in Jesus Christ.  Just as the New Covenant was inaugurated by Jesus, so the Messianic reign was inaugurated at His advent.

#2. The Branch of David.

The second time stamp in this passage is the reference to the Branch of David.  Thompson comments: "The metaphor is of a shoot (ṣemaḥ) bursting forth from the Davidic tree (i.e., the dynasty), which, though cut off, is not dead. English versions have generally translated the word as Branch. In postexilic times the term became the classic technical one for the expected ideal king (Zech. 3:8; 6:12) [3].

No one disputes that the Branch, or better, the Shoot, is referring to Jesus Christ, the expected Messiah.  Jeremiah likely got that hint from Isaiah who prophesied 100 years before.  “There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.” (Isaiah 11:1–2, ESV).  Jesus Himself citing a parallel passage (“The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;” (Isaiah 61:1, ESV) affirmed that this was about Him. (Luke 4:18-19).  Jesus believed that He was the One prophesied and He was currently engaged in the ministry foretold. 

#3. The Salvation of Israel.

In Romans 11:26 (ESV), Paul clearly tells us that he is thinking of the Old Testament restorative literature when he writes, "²⁶ And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”.  Certainly, when the audience read "in this way all Israel will be saved" they must have thought of: “In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’” (Jeremiah 23:6, ESV)

Paul was writing of contemporary things.  He describes how God has not rejected Israel, but in fact has a glorious plan of salvation based upon His electing mercies. "In this way all Israel" will be saved.  In other words, what is happening right now, as it happened to him, is how Israel will be saved.

Conclusion

Surely the authorial intent of the prophecy of Jeremiah 23:5-6, is to point us to the Coming of the Messiah at His birth and His ministry throughout the last days until His Second Return. “. . . Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” (1 Corinthians 15:23–25, ESV)

So, it was with great cause and abundant joy that the father of John the Baptist would exclaim:

". . .“Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old, that we should be saved from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us; to show the mercy promised to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath that he swore to our father Abraham, to grant us that we, being delivered from the hand of our enemies, might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him all our days.” (Luke 1:67–75, ESV)  

To God be the Glory.

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1. Thompson, J. A. (1980). The Book of Jeremiah (p. 489). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

2. Hindson, E. E., & Kroll, W. M., eds. (1994). KJV Bible Commentary (p. 1466). Thomas Nelson.

3. Thompson, J. A. (1980). The Book of Jeremiah (p. 489). Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

 

It’s Not Fair I Had To Go Through This Disease.

The death of Matthew Perry on October 28, 2023, was tragic and brought real grief to many.  It ought to be considered tragic not because of his popularity but because Matthew Perry was a human being created in God’s image. Although tarnished in us all, this imago Deo is what made him a person of dignity, value and honour.  His death is a tragic loss.   He starred on TV’s popular show Friends. Matthew Perry, the Emmy-nominated actor died at 54.  Perry's 10 seasons on Friends made him one of Hollywood's most recognizable actors, starring opposite Jennifer Aniston, Courteney Cox, Matt LeBlanc, Lisa Kudrow and David Schwimmer as a friend group in New York City.

On the CBC National, October 29, 2023, a video clip of Perry being interviewed by __ was shown in part.  It can be viewed here: https://youtu.be/vrZsyBhmMro?si=yUhRity3Wu3clmHC.  It was in this interview that Perry left his saddest legacy.  It was in this interview that mental health as social condition was given its greatest setback.  This is not a condemnation of Perry, for he simply parroted what our culture teaches. Much of my concerns can be heard approximately at 29:25:00 minutes in the interview.

He talks about going into Rehab and says, “I was placed in some kind of spiritual guys office and we talked a little bit and as we were done talking he turned around . . . And said ‘just remember it’s not your fault’ . . . and I said ‘what do you mean it’s not my fault, I’m the one who’s doing it what do you mean’?  And he saved my life because I then knew that it wasn’t my fault that I it was that I wasn’t weaker.  It wasn’t my will that was screwed up. It was that I have this disease  and I need to get help . . .  It’s not fair.  It’s not fair that I had to go through this disease while the other five didn’t.” (Emphasis mine.)

The most pervasive and culturally acceptable paradigm to view addiction is to view it through the lens of a disease model.  The backstory to Perry’s condition was that as a 14 year old, he and several of his friends drank excessively.  His alcoholism and drug abuse continued but theirs didn’t.  His conclusion: they didn’t have the disease.  He did.  By his own story, the disease model gave him something to hang his hat on. But here’s the problem: the disease model didn’t heal the disease.  The other problem in his story is that the disease model proves it to be unfair and ultimately created a mentality of victimhood.  He was dealt a bad hand and he got the disease.

This blog is not to be dismissive of Matthew Perry. I felt nothing but compassion for him as I learned his story. He truly was a victim — but not of drugs and alcohol.  He was a victim of a health system that views non-organic crises as diseases rather than sicknesses of the soul.  Full disclosure, I am no expert in this field of discussion and I admit that the secular literature supporting the “disease model” is enormous.  My only claim is my view that the Bible is the inerrant authority and sufficient authority of matters of the soul.  My expertise is questionable. My God is irrefutable. 

The Bible describes the soul of human beings as broken.  It is malfunctioning.  The word ‘futile’ describes its ability, meaning that it cannot do what it was intended to do. The Bible is also clear that the cause of the soul’s condition is sin or stated otherwise rebellion from God.  Where the problem is “non-organic” or “a matter of the soul” the remedy can only be found in the Creator of the human soul.  Genesis 2:7 (ESV): “. . . then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.”  That word “creature” in the ESV is from the Hebrew word translated into English to be “living being” or soul.

The Bible doesn’t avoid the matter of alcoholism or addiction.  Note:

Proverbs 23:29–32 (ESV): “Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who tarry long over wine; those who go to try mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.”

Without addressing matters of the soul it is impossible to resolve non-organic problems. Proverbial wisdom from the Scriptures remind us that issues of the soul determine vitality of life. We read in Proverbs 4:23 (ESV): “Keep your heart [= soul] with all vigilance, for from it flow the springs of life.”

Again, I have nothing but sadness and compassion for Matthew Perry.  His story is a stark reminder that those who are afflicted non-organic horrors should seek the only true Physician of the soul. There are specific matters of human suffering that cannot be resolved by determination, discipline, doctors or drugs.  Matters of soul-sickness can only be healed through the Great Physician, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 11:28–30 (ESV): “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. ‘Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.’”

The Half-Baked Sermon: Missing Ingredients in Much Preaching

By Jeremy Walker, Desiring God.

“What is the problem? . . . He may be delivering a lecture rather than a sermon, even if warmer rather than cooler in tone. He may offer “hot systematics” — an accurate treatment of a theological topic delivered with deep conviction. He may provide a biblical-theological survey, tracing the sweep of revelation along a particular line, but not anchored to any one part of it . . .. Sometimes fire in the pulpit masks a lack of warmth in the material, like delivering a frozen pizza in a heated bag. Often the context is provided, all the words are explained, the strict sense is given. By the end of such a sermon, the congregation might know much of what a text says. At the same time, they may know nothing of what it actually means for them.“ (Emphasis Mine)

To read more click HERE.

An excellent example as how to resolve conflict.

 

https://www.9marks.org/conversations/on-pastoral-public-tone-with-kevin-deyoung-pastors-talk-ep-245/

In this Pastors Talk episode, Jonathan Leeman (9Marks) interviews Mark Dever (Baptist) and Kevin DeYoung (Reformed) on pastoral, public tone; and the correction of brothers. This interview also gives help to disagreeing in public.

Principles:

1. The offended acted quickly when he saw/heard something that was wrong.
2. The offended got counsel from others what to do. This is not gossip.
3. The offended wrote directly in a clear, honest way. He wrote because he could articulate his concerns clearly and carefully.
4. The offended was very gracious when the offender apologized.
5. The offender know that the one taking offence. should be happy that he grow and learn by this. 
6. They knew each other well, by character thus having confidence that their concerns would be handled graciously and seriously.
7. The offender called right away after receiving the rebuke and repented.
8. The offender, when realizing his error did what he could to make it right. 
9. The effectiveness of the resolution was directly based on the good relationship of the parties and the trust that they could speak of such things confidently. There is wisdom to know how a rebuke might land. 
10. To be able to communicate in such manner is to respect the other party and assume that they will hear what they’re saying.  He is assuming that the other will not take it out of context, make light of it, be resentful toward it.

Build the kind of relationships that this level of discussion can take place. Unfortunately I have experienced several significant issues that I feel unable to address with a person because their response to conflict has been defensiveness, counter-attack, failure to really listen to my concerns, making light of it, or oppositely becoming distant and resentful.

I pray today that if I am that way, the Lord will hear my repentance and give grace.

Are You Blessed, Or Are You Trying To Be Blessed?

Have you heard the Beatitudes preached this way:“If you are poor in spirit enough, if you are sad enough, if you are hungering and thirsting enough, THEN, you will be blessed.”

The sermon sounds like a conditional reward.  If you are this, you get that.  But “this word [blessed] affirms a state of blessing that already exists. Each beatitude declares that a group of people usually regarded as afflicted is actually blessed.” (TOW, Bible Commentary) The word blessed is an adjectival noun, meaning that it serves as an indicative and a descriptive. The Bible describes a people who are called. They are “the” called indicating who they are; and they are the “called” noting the action being done to them.  So it is with the Blessed.  They are THE blessed indicating who they are by description and they are the blessed indicating what is happening to them.  Matthew uses the word ‘blessed’ in both ways.  

One might successfully argue that we cannot be Christians unless we are poor in spirit, or mourn over sin.  Jesus simply declares that those people are already blessed.  Non-Christians would think otherwise.  To the contrary Jesus is saying to us as citizens of His kingdom that you are blessed, despite the fact of being poor in spirit, persecuted, hungry — hungering for righteousness, etc. You are a blessed people, not a cursed people.  And then He adds to each of the eight a promise connected with that assertion.  To personalize the text one might say: “My meekness is not the condition of the cursed, it is the condition of the blessed.  Therefore the promise to us (Blessed is in the plural) that we all who are meek will inherit the earth.”  

Perhaps you will read the Beatitudes differently and “rejoice and be glad”.